Does God Predestine People to Hell? - A Response to Gavin, Part IV

With everything we’ve considered so far, we can finally respond to Pastor John’s first preliminary. He says, “Some believe that it is unjust for God to throw people into hell!”

The reply?

Yes. Yes, it very much unjust for God to throw people into hell. We have zero indication that an eternal torment is written out in Scripture. In an adulterated text? Sure. Does man believe it? Absolutely. But did God say it? Nope! Not even sort of.

Now, this is not the entirety of Pastor John’s first preliminary – all he said, in the beginning of his video, is that this is the way that some people think. My first three articles, I believe, should be sufficient evidence as to why it is completely okay, and even proper, to think this way. God most assuredly agrees with the unjustness of hell (as we read in Jer. 19:4-6 and 32:30-35.)

The reason I’ve been saying Pastor John is being disingenuous is because of his next statement. He says, “There are many people for whom a ‘yes’ answer to this question, ‘Yes, he predestines people to hell,’ would have to mean ‘God is unjust, and He is not good.’ So a positive answer to that question is simply not possible for them. In fact, I would say – if that is who you are – if God predestining who is saved and who perishes can only mean that He’s unrighteous, or unjust, or not good – you shouldn’t believe it, even if it’s true. I know that sounds strange. Only believe it if you see it taught in the Bible, and if it does not undermine other true and important things taught about God in the Bible. I know that sounds almost outrageous to some people – ‘don’t believe it, even if it’s true,’ but I’m not here to undermine anyone’s confidence in the goodness and the justness of God.”

This has to be one of the greatest sleights I’ve ever seen a pastor make. Really! It’s clever. If I had the opportunity, I’d give him the ‘Most Cleverest Guy Ever’ award at the Grammys.

What, you didn’t catch it? Come on, you don’t see the blatant bait and switch?

*sigh* Okay, let’s get into it, then. As we’ve studied, the answer to the question he’s been asking would make God unjust. Having studied the most important proof texts in the original Greek scriptures, we can see that this is very obviously the case. Pastor John performs a sleight of hand when he transforms the question into something else halfway through the sentence. First, to his objector, God is unjust if he predestines people to hell. Then all of a sudden, the objector must find it unjust that God is ‘predestining’ who is saved and who perishes.

Do you see the error now? He takes an issue about hell, the notion that God is burning people alive, and turns it into an issue over His sovereignty, or authority over His creation. These are two separate topics, and should be treated as such. The issue is absolutely not with God’s authority. The very word “God,” by definition, means Subjector, and He is all-knowing. It makes absolute sense that He is in control of His creation. How absolutely silly one would be to say, “God’s subjecting you, but only with your permission!”

There are many verses where God states His absolute authority over His creation (Lam. 3:36-38, Ecc. 1:12, Rom. 9:16-24, 11:33-36, Acts 17:25, Eph. 1:9-11, to name a few.) No, the issue is not His authority, but His methods as Authority. It is unjust for God to predestine people to hell – not because ‘predestining at all is inherently unjust,’ but because claiming that He is predestining people to pass through fire is unjust! This is especially true when He explicitly says that the idea is abhorrent to His heart. It is ‘hell’ that is the issue, here, that it has been worked into a text and passed off as absolute truth.

And then to turn around and say, “Don’t believe it, even if it’s true?” What kind of statement is that?? How far do you want to lead someone down your own personal opinion?? No self-respecting teacher can say such a thing. To say that we should ‘not believe something if it’s true’ is far and away the worst thing a pastor could say – especially if your goal is to learn the truth!

What Pastor John should say (and it’s what I will also tell you,) is this: study it for yourself. Stop taking crap from others and study the original Greek text. Detach whatever personal feelings you may have about the world, because God did not write His word with intent to adhere to man’s feelings, but to clarify His own. It’s not “don’t believe yourself, even if it’s true.” It’s simply, Believe what’s true.

Pastor John does not say that. Instead, in claiming that you shouldn’t trust it, even if it’s true, he’s saying, in long-winded fashion, that you should believe the lie first. In heralding such a message, Pastor John is doing exactly what he says he is not trying to do: he is indeed undermining people’s understanding of God’s justness and goodness. Moreover, he himself is literally undermining God’s justness and goodness. Let Scripture speak first, then your thoughts, Pastor John. You should know that (2 Cor. 11:12-15.)

Believe it or not, this leads to even more insincerity, because he immediately regales us with his personal experience, and uses his feigned sincerity to try and back why he thinks we should believe a lie. Here’s him, in his own words:

“I know what it’s like to ‘see’ these things at first, and not see how they [do] fit with his ‘justness’ and ‘goodness.’ I have wept! I mean, my early 20’s was a season of great torment, mentally and emotionally, over theological issues like this. I have tasted (?) what it means to put my head on my desk, face in my hands, and cry out to God, “I don’t get this!!” So, I want to be patient with people. I don’t want to undermine people’s confidence in the righteousness and goodness of God.”

I don’t doubt that Pastor John had a rough decade trying to wrap his head around how a just God could burn people in hell for eternity. I’m sure it took him a decade of intense studying, personal prayer to his god, and intense rationalization with his church bishops or something. The good news, Pastor John, is that you came a long way. The bad news is, you went the wrong way.

It’s disingenuous as his first preliminary because he says it as though he’s using this experience to relate to our emotions. It’s a feigned pathos because he’s doing exactly what he says he’s not doing, while lying on God’s name. A preliminary statement should provide some sort of context for the passage you’re about to quote, or an overview of the book you’re studying. Maybe, at most, an overview of your conclusion beforehand, and how you’re going to reach it. You should not have to present a personal experience in a preliminary statement about the Bible, or try and get ahead of everyone’s inner moral conscience, which naturally understands that burning people alive is horrific (Gen. 1:26-27, Jer. 19:4-6.)

*   *   *

Pastor John’s second preliminary is thus:

“My second preliminary thing would be that God never – never, NEVER – will send anyone to hell unjustly. No one will ever be hell who does not deserve to be there. And this fact that they deserve to be there will be open and plain to all the universe in that day.”

This is a short but effective claim from Pastor John. I call it a claim because it doesn’t make sense to call this a ‘preliminary.’ This, unlike his first preliminary, is establishing his personal view on hell, and, since he is arguing the affirmative on this question, it’s necessary that we understand his point of view.

That being said, he does not take the time to cite any verse to actually prove this claim. He just says it. See, when you make a claim, you must be able to back it up with proof. But, as we have covered God’s original Greek text and can very clearly read that it doesn’t tell us of anyone going to a place of eternal conscious torment, there becomes a telling reason that Pastor John doesn’t quote a verse concerning this claim.

He is watering down the message of hell. Let it not be understated – the eternal conscious torment doctrine is never agreed upon. To some, there’s fire. To others, there’s not. To some, it’s only unbelief. To others, it’s where you go when you commit the ‘unforgivable sin.’ To many, it’s only where the worst of the worst go (Hitler always has a front row seat in the seventh level of hell.) Its proponents are discordant in their theology. Is this alone not telling? As Christ says in Matt. 12:25, “Every city or house parted against itself shall not stand.”

For Pastor John, it seems as though only the worst of the worst go to hell. There is not a single verse that we’ve read that mentions this being the case for ‘Gehenna,’ ‘Tartarus,’ or ‘Unseen.’ None of them say ‘You have to be really bad to end up here!’ As we have studied, Gehenna is true of lawbreakers in the kingdom, Tartarus is for sinning messengers, and the unseen is what happens to every soul when they die.

*   *   *

Pastor John’s third preliminary follows:

“Third preliminary. This means that if God ordains ahead of time that anyone will perish, He does it in a way that is probably inscrutable for us, and beyond our understanding. He does it in a way that the person is really responsible, really accountable for his choices, really guilty, really deserving of punishment. This is the hardest thing to grasp. But it is essential to believe all of Scripture, I believe. Everyone who perishes has chosen sin in such a way so as to be truly responsible for his choice, and truly guilty and truly deserving of judgment.”

First – to perish is not to burn eternally. There is a dramatic difference between the two. It is just for God to take a life, and His explanation is not inscrutable, it’s just that most don’t like it. He answers man’s complaints about mortality (and immorality) in Ecc. 1:13–

It is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity, to humble them by it.

God is very clear as to the temporary, but necessary, nature of evil. Man does not agree, but it’s really not about that. Your personal qualms with the plan doesn’t change the fact that it is in motion, and has been from the start. The worst event, being the murder of God’s righteous Son, was foreknown before evil even came about (1 Pet. 1:19-20.) God owns this, proclaiming Himself the Creator of evil (Is. 45:7,) and the One that goads evil into occurring (Lam. 3:36-38.) He says that He is the Source of all (1 Cor. 8:6, Acts 17:25, Eph. 1:11,) that evil men act the way they do because of Him (Rom. 1:20-32, Rom. 9:18,) and the story of Adam and Eve shows us actively that He is the One that gives, and takes away, life (Gen. 3:18-19.)

This concept is an entire study in and of itself. It would double the size of this argument, sifting through every verse in which God proclaims Himself to be the Source of all. But that’s not the point. The point is this – did God include eternally burning people in His plan? We haven’t seen a verse so far that says that this is the case. Looking high and low, we’ve covered each use of hell in the New Testament scriptures, to no avail. It becomes evident in this that, if He purposefully did not include such a concept in Scripture, that hell is not some ‘inscrutable thing’ that we cannot possibly hope to apprehend, but purposefully kept out so that a truth seeker does not believe it.

What’s more? The adulterated texts keep this idea of hell, to blind the apprehensions of most who love injustice. Here’s 2 Thess. 2:11-12–

God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood, that all may be judged who do not believe the truth, but delight in injustice.

In the context, this is in reference to the final seven years of Revelation. Do you see the principle? God sends operations of deceptions, that He can call out His chosen ones, as He says He does (Rom. 8:28-30, Rom. 3:21-23, 1 Cor. 11:19.) He inflicts evil, that He may make Himself known through our humbling.

The verse that I think proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt, is Romans 11:32. This verse, according to eternal torment believers, says this:

For God locks up all together in stubbornness.

To Pastor John, apparently, the verse says this:

For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He may be merciful to His believers and discard everyone else with eternal hellfire.

Sorry, I’m being cute. Here’s what the verse actually says:

For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.

Read it again.

For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.

If all are locked up together in stubbornness against their will, then He will be merciful to all. Your personal belief, desire, want, disdain, emotional state – none of that changes the fact that this is what God said. You can’t unhear it, it’s not a misprint, and you’re not going to study Romans 11’s context and magically find something nonsensical (this verse, in fact, is a conclusion to the argument that God is not finished with Israel, and will save all of them – 11:26-27. And then God clarifies that He is sovereign – 11:33-36.) This is what God said, as opposed to what He didn’t. If you say you believe in the One, Elohim, then you’ll believe this phrase. This phrase is the mark of a just God – one that punishes irreverence, but has mercy on the person after the fact. Screwing up is not ‘game over’ with God. Screwing up is the beginning with God.

*   *   *

Continuing on with Pastor John’s third preliminary: the man says that, if you’re in hell, you really deserve it. You really belong there. He is riding Guilt’s dick to the fullest extent. With everything we just considered about God’s sovereignty, when on earth do you see God say that man is responsible for their actions?? He never once says this. He spends most of His time in Scripture highlighting man’s inability to act, so that the message of faith on His terms is established! He says that He is responsible for all:

Out of Him and through Him and for Him is all.

Romans 11:36. God will not look at Hitler, for example (someone most of Christendom agrees will be in “hell,”) and go, “Oh, man, Hitler, you just went off the rails, there! I didn’t even see that coming… and the way you turned around and back-handed Russia like that? Like that was just next-level evil, man, I’m shocked. Credit where credit is due – you really know how to be an evil guy. I didn’t see that coming at all. Well, I guess I have to eternally damn you! …What? You don’t see the love in this? Well, look, stop worrying about it! My ways are inscrutable! Don’t worry, I love you! I’m burning you without end for your own good. I’m just that caring, yes!”

He knows everyone’s heart – not because we have some little sovereign piece of spirit that He ‘checks in on’ every once in a while, like Santa Clause or something. He knows everyone’s heart because He made everyone’s heart. He made it clear in Genesis that He is imparting the spirit of life on anyone. You are alive because of Him. You are placed where you are because of Him. You know who you know because of Him. You have what you have, both good and bad, because of Him. Your experience is crucial to His story. Even Christendom’s lie here about Him is being used to contrast His truth! Romans 3:4–

Now let God be true, yet every man a liar, even as it is written: “That so Thou shouldst be justified in Thy sayings, And shalt be conquering when Thou art being judged.”

It is God Who is justified through man’s lies about Him. It is His to conquer through His being judged. He shows us His righteousness in our lie, and His power through our judgment. When He judges, it will be just, and it will be merciful. He is not the God of permanent torture. We will be covering a long passage at the end of this series, highlighting His vast love for His creation, that is hardly ever discussed in Christianity’s sects, but I don’t want to deviate from Pastor John’s rambling, so let’s go back.

For one who believes in God’s sovereignty, Pastor John is very set on making it your fault, not His, that any punishment (hell or otherwise) befalls you. They make God sound like Saruman. Here he is not the One in authority, the One that makes all, but an angry child that must “get revenge” because you didn’t do exactly what He told you to do (as if He is not also the One that gives you the ability or inability to do anything.)

God, being the Source of all, does not say that your choice earns you anything. The fact that you are presented with any sort of choice at all by One Who knows better highlights your lack. He’s not here to make you feel good about your decision. Did Christ have a choice to die on the cross?? Here’s God concerning His righteous Son, in Isaiah 53:9-10–

And they appoint His tomb with the wicked, With the rich His sepulcher, Although He had done no wrong, And no deceit was in His mouth. Yet Yahweh desires to crush Him, And He causes Him to be wounded.

Interesting! Christ may have chosen to lay down His life, but it was absolutely not outside of God’s intention. If this is true of His Christ, why is it any less true of you?? Do you have the ability to make “better” decisions? Is your ability to take and give life greater than His??

God does not say, “You choose sin, so you have no redemption.” He says “You choose sin, so I can draw you in anyway.” That is His power. Nearly forty times, in Scripture, He says that you are taking account of your decisions, thoughts and actions (Rom. 2:3, 2:15, 3:28, 4:5-6, 4:22-24, 6:11, 8:18, 14:14, to name a few.) You are answering for them, but you are not the cause. To proclaim otherwise, when God has not at all said that your choices make you responsible for your own downfall, is yet again man’s reasoning, ignorant to what God said.

*   *   *

Pastor John brings one more preliminary to the table:

“We live in a time where it is very difficult for people to let God be ‘God.’”

You said it, guy.

...Wait, you said that? I- 

“Even to conceive of a God with this much authority – this much complexity… this much power – is almost impossible for many modern people. Beware of being stopped from believing the Bible by being a child of your time.”

I can see it now, on Judgment Day: “God, I couldn’t help it! I didn’t know any better! I was just a child of my time! I didn’t know that taking an extra jelly doughnut after work is what gave me the diabetes! Please, that was difficult enough. You don’t have to send me to hell, do you?? Please???”

Pastor John has been using these preliminaries to combat free will, but is sinning entirely by proclaiming that God’s heart is to throw most in hell. The issue we have, Pastor John, is not God’s authority. That, any man can (and will) grasp. The issue we have is that eternal torment is not stated as a just punishment, either in the law, where such a topic would be most important, or by Christ, the Image of the invisible God.

Indeed, do not be overcome by the times. The times proclaim that God would burn you alive, because man believes it. Man, however, is unjust, and our belief does not necessitate God’s reaction. It is our belief that is the effect, and His purpose that is the cause. God says He is faithful (Rom. 3:3, 1 Cor. 10:13.) Is He the God of believers only?? I think not (Rom. 3:28-29, 1 Tim. 2:4, 4:4, 4:10.) We would do well to recognize God as the Authority over His creation, as well as loving. The two aren’t irreconcilable, and they line up perfectly.

*   *   *

And so what we have learned…

-         It is unjust for God to punish people eternally with an unjust punishment, which He did not explicitly say would occur at all.

-         A small sample of verses in which God claims absolute sovereignty over all of His creation (including evil) – Lam. 3:36-38, Ecc. 1:12, Rom. 9:16-24, 11:33-36, Acts 17:25, Eph. 1:9-11

-         It is an experience of evil that Elohim has given us, to humble us (Ecc. 1:13.) This is cause and effect.

-         Christ’s sacrifice was foreknown before the disruption of the world (1 Pet. 1:19-20.)

-         God is the creator of evil (Is. 45:7,) and men commit evil deeds because of Him (Rom. 1:18-32, Rom. 9:16.)

-         God sends deceptions, and uses them to call out His chosen saints (2 Thess. 2:11-12, Rom. 8:28-30, Rom. 3:21-23, 1 Cor. 11:19.)

-         He is the Cause of everything (1 Cor. 8:6.)

-         Christ is the Channel by which everything occurs (1 Cor. 8:6.)

-         God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all (Rom. 11:32.)

-         God gives life, and takes life (Acts 17:25, Gen. 3:18-19.)

-         The truth of God superabounds in man’s lie, that He is shown to be just – Rom. 3:4

-         God killed His Son (Is. 53:9-10)

-         You are accountable for your actions (Rom. 2:3, 2:15, 3:28, 4:5-6, 4:22-24, 6:11, 8:18, 14:14, etc.) but you are never said to be the source.

-         God is faithful (Rom. 3:3, 1 Cor. 10:13.)

(to be continued)

- GerudoKing